My Atheism

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I am an atheist, a phrase that sounds like standing up at an AA meeting to say you have an alcohol problem, but actually I'm proud of my disbelief. I was raised as a Catholic by a family of lapsed Catholics, but God and Jesus were presented to me as facts, and I became an atheist as soon I knew there was such a thing, only to get sucked into a Hinduism based meditation cult with full on brainwashing in the early 80's, before escaping in 1985 and returning to Atheism. I studied Humanism as a philosophy discipline on going to university as a mature student, and ran a Humanism group and edited its newsletter for over a decade. I still see myself as atheist, secular humanist, existentialist and sceptic. Death and suffering to me scream that there is no God, certainly no loving one. I hate how after an earthquake kills 1,000's a live baby found in the rubble is declared a miracle detracting from the work of the human rescuers and ignoring how the God)s) slaughtered so many at all. Covid likewise says no God could allow this.

Now I'm caving into bowel cancer, (not yet 100% diagnosed but medics tell me it is increasingly likely. I have revealed my fate to various family and friends, (not all) and many reflexively tell me they are praying for me and my recovery. Angered at their wasted energy, though also touched that it proves they at least care

SuperHealer over 4 years ago

Hi Forester42, I agree with what you said, except that you are more tolerant than I am with the praying stuff. I used to go along out of courtesy, now I realise that might be problematic. The World could have been a better place.

Even if their Gods existed, shouldn't we be condemning the monsters instead? The notion of worshipping any monster is perverse and disturbing to say the least. It's like a mental illness. We all need some imagination in life, but that's just going too far into insanity.

The human mind is complex. In general, humans are not as super intelligent as we think we are, otherwise the World would not be the way it is now. Take the latest crisis, nobody agrees on anything, the politicians act as if the virus cared about lock downs and curfews and would stop infecting people after 9pm. People have the right to live their lives, you cannot arrest millions of people. The journalists would whisk up frenzies making up misleading figures as they go along. Before Covid, few people paid any attention to how many people died from from all sorts of reasons every year. It's part of Nature. To ignore everything else and treat Covid as the ONLY problem in the World is just sheer madness. I kept waiting for the government to call off the pandemic, all they do is leading us further into Hell. I dread to think what the Council Tax bills will be like next year. The protection has to be on a personal level, e.g. masks, hand hygiene, some physical distancing, voluntary shielding. All businesses should be allowed to open as long as they have sensible logistics. The only way to end this madness is for the politicians and journalists to change their direction. They just keep it dragging on.

As for those who claim mysterious symptoms perhaps should read up on "mass hysteria" in history. Co-incidentally, there was an article written about mass hysteria in October 2019 just before Covid. It shows how the mind can seriously affects one's health.

Of course viruses could kill, so would bacteria, suicides, heart attacks, accidents ... The protection has to be on a personal level. For example, crossing the road is terribly dangerous too, do we ban cars and lock ourselves up ? Of course not, we just need to learn to manage: look left and right before crossing the road.

It must be good news in itself that your diagnosis is not conclusive. Hopefully, it is not cancer (even if it is, it can be treated). If it's a false alarm, perhaps it'd lead you to a better future. Explore a more suitable diet for better health, if you haven't already done so.

Please do come back to let us know how you do when the picture is clearer. Bon courage !

Forester42 over 4 years ago in reply to SuperHealer

Cheers SuperHealer yeah, even they proved God existed, ie, if he just turned up, I could not love him after the atrocities of history from inquisitions to Dachau (which I visited about 15 years back). Somehow the religionists confuse God is Real (he's not) with God loves us - obviously, an entity like God would be impossible to fight, defeat or kill, but the idea that we should worship him would be abhorrent to me. Without God, the death and suffering actually becomes understandable as nature red in tooth and claw or humans at their least humane/ Covid will spread as long as the economy matters more than lives; a few millionaire panicking because they are down to their last £33 million get to insist we go back to work, where even if the factory / call centre itself is respecting distancing, having staff using the same entrances, start / finish times, washrooms, canteen space, etc is a recipe for disaster - it's like an invite to Typhoid Mary's all you can eat finger buffet. Then they blame use of buses (needed by many to get to work) and pubs which can be badly run, but work places are the real spreaders (after politicians holding mass rallies of course) - Hysteria is a major factor too for sure

SuperHealer over 4 years ago in reply to Forester42

Thank you Forester42 for your interesting views.

I agree with what you said EXCEPT that I think the lockdowns are a huge mistake, in fact it is hurting the poor much more than the rich. It is the poor that need the jobs, not the rich. I'm very against lockdowns and curfews, not just because they won't work in reality (in my opinion), do we stop people from grocery shopping too? It's not because the rich caring more about the economy than lives. With the lockdowns, the poor is going to suffer the most long term (despite what the Governments have promised, they will get the money back from the poor in other ways).

Life is not just about existing. It is also about the quality of life too. The virus is not the only problem in the World, to ignore everything else and focus on it to me makes no sense. For example, mental health is just as important.

There will always be another virus, we just need to manage it on a personal level, we take our own responsibility instead of being locked up. There are different ways to protect ourselves. Yes you are right, the current systems are inadequate, but it doesn't mean they cannot be well designed, be it in offices, factories or on buses. If the experts in the Governments focus on the designs instead of lock downs, there is no reason why all businesses need to suffer.

I think the only way to end this pandemic of madness is to change our mindset. Think outside the box.

greg777 over 4 years ago

Hi Forrester,

Just wanted to say hello and sorry to read that you might be taking an unwanted journey through cancer land.

I think it’s a shame that we still live in a world where you have to almost “come out” as a non-believer. It shines a light on how much power religion still has over the human race. I think it stems from the human race’s never ending search for meaning and in my experience a cancer diagnosis points the edges a little bit on that front. As for myself, I put myself in the bracket of passive agnosticism, I don’t have a strong belief in anything, but i think it is good you have clarity and that it works for you.
I just wanted to say hello and wish you well on your journey and hope you find this to be a safe space to articulate anything that you’d like to. In my experience, cancer throughs up all sorts of emotions and I think it’s good there’s a space like this to explore whatever comes up. Re: the “praying” thing, I just imagine that I’ve misheard and they said “thinking” - ultimately that’s what it is anyway I guess?

All the best

Greg

Fortiemac over 4 years ago in reply to SuperHealer

I agree partly, but your libertarian attitude seems to miss the fact that you will be yourself infectious before you ever know that you have covid. You are free to be blase with your won health, but you should think of others. Noone suggests that the virus doesn't infect after 8PM, or whenver. It's just a way of reducing the proportion of time it can be transmitted.

I do agree about the folly of praying. In my view about as useful as swaying a gemstone over your body. But, who knows: at the moment I am an atheist, but it's possible that i migiht become so pathetic in extreme ilness that I do turn to some idea of God. That would be daft of me, and I hope I don't come to that.

Good luck with your illness, and I hope you don't contract Covid.

Fortie

Forester42 over 4 years ago in reply to SuperHealer

The lockdowns would have to be total to fully work, but as long as anyone goes out to shop, work, take a walk, etc the virus can hitch a ride and spread - it would be worse without masks or any lockdown at all

SuperHealer over 4 years ago in reply to Fortiemac

Thank you Fortiemac, for your opposing perspective, as it is always interesting to try understand the other side.

First off, I do not have any illness (well, not that I know of anyway). I joined the forum because of the loved ones in my life, there has been so much suffering. I also would like to help others.

You are absolutely right that "I should think of others". It is in fact due to the same reason that I am very against lockdowns. For some reason, lockdown supporters seem to assume that if we disagree with lockdowns, we would not take precautions. This is simply not true. When I visit a care home, I always keep a distance and wear PPE. I'm all for wearing masks. I know wearing masks do work and it offers a two-way protection. Here's my rationale:

* There is no lock downs in Sweden, yet the death toll there is no higher than in the UK

* The countries where people do voluntarily wear masks have much much lower death tolls

* There are so many lives ruined due to the blanket lockdowns, I would not consider other lives any less important

* I find it very hard to believe that in the high tech World we live in, we would be unable to design some effective preventative measures and sort out the logistics in offices and other public places. There is no reason why good systems cannot be put in place.

In any case, lock down doesn't work and never will, for so many reasons. It's impossible to make others agree, you cannot lock up millions of people. Even if a full lockdown could be achieved, what kind of a life would that be ? Here's an analogy: crossing the road is extremely dangerous too. Do we ban it, or do we learn how to look left and right to cross the road instead?

Thank you for allowing me the opportunity to clarify the above, much appreciated.

PS Please accept my apology for casually bringing up such a sensitive subject to distract from the original post. I should have started a new topic instead.

Stay safe.

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