Coronavirus

Thank you Greg for your perspective.

The lock down might have appeared that many lives had been saved BUT in reality it's just a wild assumption (from the result I see it hasn't).  If it had, surely the death tolls wouldn't have looked so horrendous especially compared to the countries (e.g. Singapore, Hong Kong, New Zealand) that people are still able to go to restaurants etc?  The numbers tell a very different picture.

Also, you seem to think that the blanket lock down hasn't killed anyone unnecessarily.  It has! e.g. through suicide.  It's not just financial loss, it's people's mental health as well.  There are many deaths that are not directly caused by the virus but died because of the fear.

We need to work harder to explore the real solutions, learn from the countries that have lower death rates for example.

Anyway, I hope you are right about the update.  I hear that the lockdown will start to ease from next Monday.  I do hope people would take precautions during the change, otherwise like you say another spike and we'd be in serious trouble.

https://people.com/health/hydroxychloroquine-ineffective-against-coronavirus-linked-higher-death-rate-study-finds/

https://www.idealmedicalcare.org/three-young-doctors-jump-to-their-deaths-in-nyc/

Hi SuperHealer,

I guess when the government sends me loads of letters and texts saying that I am of “greatest risk of severe illness” and then i read about loads of people dying, some who seem to have no health problems at all, I have just got a bit scared really. I rang up my haemotology team who I trust very much, and they agreed with the government advice, so I believe the danger from the virus to be very real. I’ll never forget the consultant saying to me on first visit that his job was to keep me alive long enough that I die of something else - I really don’t want coronavirus to be the “something else”!

I know that a lot of people are suffering due to lockdown (I think you misunderstood me, I do realise there will have been deaths which the lockdown has contributed to, all of which are incredibly sad - I still think the lives saved by lockdown are greater than those lost, as the virus curve projections before lockdown started looked horrific and the lockdown has stopped the virus spreading throughout the country). It is a very tricky situation and I realise lockdown can’t stay forever but if it gives me (and 1.6m other people) a fighting chance at living by not overwhelming the NHS, surely it has got to be worth it?

All the best

Greg

Hi SuperHealer and greg777,

To add my twopennysworth to your dialogue, I think there is merit in the lockdown, and would have been more merit had it happened sooner and  then been used to do lots of good old fashioned testing and tracking. Complacency and inaction have done untold damage to people's lives and health and to people's livelihoods. The lockdown is full of holes and inconsistencies, and there are plenty of hypocrites out there, mainly people with money and second homes. Oh, the irony of Jenrick doing the daily briefing yesterday when he himself did not resign when he drove from London to Herefordshire to his second home on the pretext of then going another 40 miles to deliver prescriptions to his parents. Neil Ferguson may have been a pillock but at least he had the good grace to resign.I agree that we should not put all our faith in Govt to keep us safe, and the constant refrain of "we are following the science" is a mantra with no meaning, since the science is different depending on which scientists you listen to. The Govts who have done well are those that took immediate action, did care about the health of their citizens and tested and traced to isolate those infected individuals. I know this is a really difficult time and calling it right is hard, but the fact that there are govts who did care about their populations highlights the ones who didnt. Our own shower have been incompetent, complacent, and lacking candour and transparency, and they still are being those things now. How people can think they are doing well is unbelievable to me - still ongoing issues with PPE, care home deaths, the highest death rate in Europe etc There will be a tsumani of effects both on health and the economy to follow which I am not hopeful they will handle well. I recognise they have tried to provide financial support but they chose to go for a typically bureacratic and sluggish way of getting help to people, via banks and Universal Credit. The advice on masks has been unclear and constantly changing - hopefully people will choose to make their own decisions and I do see people with masks on more and more.

I, like greg777 have been shielding and will continue to do so, as I also dont want to die before I have to as a result of a virus instead of my incurable cancer. I am also very mindful of how many people are suffering across the world, and how lucky we are to live in a country with a functioning health service which has not been overwhelmed by covid patients, which has to be in large measure due to the lockdown. I just wish the lockdown had been shorter and sharper and led to proper infectious disease measures just as the WHO urged all govts with its call to test, test, test. I wont go on, because I would fill several pages.

Hi Greg777 and ownedbystaffies, thank you for your perspectives and input.

My point was that people listen to the WHO and the "experts" even when they are wrong (much like the religious people arguing their points based on the "facts" in their holy books, making assumptions based on these books as if they were facts, which of course nonsense).  . BTW,  I don't believe home testing is that important either (hospital testing is another matter of course) as they are inaccurate also there is no guarantee, e.g. if someone is not infected, they can still get infected after a test!  Not much point.  If the blanket lock down were the answer, the result should have been much better.  I do not believe it has saved your lives.  You have not got the virus because you have taken special care of yourselves. 

The blanket lock down impact the economy and it will affect the quality of YOUR care too.  Hell to pay.  I don't believe it's worth it.

Having said all that, people are difficult to persuade.  e.g. I spent ages trying to persuade some selfish ones not to pass on the virus ... just as futile, after a long discussion, they would still come back saying like, "Why, why should I wear a mask when (the experts claim) that it only protects others from me (not protecting me)."  First the selfish attitude, then subconsciously brought up the wrongful mask advice which people cannot forget (e.g. not airborne, no use blah blah nonsense).

Wearing a mask is a critical strategy, it makes the difference between 40,000+ vs 4 deaths !   There are more and more people wearing masks so hopefully, things should get better if more people do the two way protection.

Let's hope the Government would come up with good suggestions (e.g. mask; glasses; physical distancing; logistics etc), if they don't we would have no choice but to let Nature take its course (if the selfish ones refuse to be considerate), also to do the prevention ourselves.

Continue to stay safe.

PS so many street parties people ignored distancing, the same goes with the park walks.  At the supermarkets, few people wear masks ...  The blanket lock down is futile.  Please everyone wears PPE and practise common sense, otherwise the blanket lock downs are going to ruin our lives indefinitely.  It affects everyone.  Even if the Governments could print money fast, the inflation would catch up soon.  The quality of care would suffer for years to come.  Unsustainable.

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Hi Greg, it has been a while since we last discussed this.  I was wondering whether you have changed your perspective or have some new insight that you would like to share with us.

I have tried to keep an open mind, but I still feel that the global lock down is a biggest mistake in human history, based on

*  the amount of people who have committed suicide since

*  the mental health problems have gone from bad to worse (I consider mental health is just as important)

*  without human interaction a lot of people have become lonely, and the final hours of those patients were tragic.  Loved ones couldn't even get a chance to say goodbye.

*  the patients who have been neglected and died due to other life threatening illnesses (Covid-19 is NOT the only disease, so it's unfair that other patients should lose their lives over this.  They should have equal opportunities)

*  the lock down has achieved what self-shielding could have achieved anyway

*  people who went to the beaches instead of going to work

*  the failed businesses and job losses (the consequences are affecting welfare too)

I personally think masks wearing is more important (if you compare the death toll statistics amongst the countries that wear masks), but I have noticed that most people are not going to follow the rules in the UK (the supermarkets have already announced that they will not enforce the rules on their staff and customers.  Not only are testing inaccurate, there is no guarantee that people wouldn't go on to get infected after being testing.   In which case, Herd Immunity seems to be not so far fetched after all.

I'm beginning to think, other than the global lock down is a HUGE mistake, it is actually pointless.  People in the West seem to be doing whatever they want anyway.  I feel that, taking precautions for individuals (e.g. self-shielding for the vulnerable, mask wearing, hand hygiene and physical distancing are more than enough. 

Individuals should take personal responsibility of any precautions to protect and not protect themselves.

Hi SuperHealer,

It is great to hear from you again, I hope you are doing alright?

This whole COVID-19 is so challenging, the overwhelming emotion that I am feeling at the moment is confusion.

For what it is worth, I continue to believe that lockdown was the right decision. We were living through unprecedented times where no-one could predict what the outcome would be and there was a very real risk of the NHS being overwhelmed, which would have been disastrous for everyone, even more so than the impacts that have been brought about by lockdown.

Now that the virus rates have come down, I believe it to be the right thing to do to relax the measures. From my perspective, this was all about (and continues to be about) protecting the NHS for the benefit of us all. There is a very fine line to walk in terms of economic impacts and other health consequences, but the virus was unknown and very dangerous, so I think we had to do something drastic until we knew more about it. It is becoming more and more apparent that this virus will be with us for a long time and so I believe we should all be sensitive in trying to adapt our behaviours to ensure that we don’t get another spike that will threaten the NHS’ ability to cope again. 

These are such difficult times, there are problems whichever way we turn. I don’t dispute that individual responsibility is paramount, but unfortunately, as many people have proved over these past few months, a lot of people need strong guidance to help them see what is the collective best interests of all of us.

Greg

Thank you Greg for your input, much appreciated.  It is indeed a challenging time.  Surreal.

One thing I have noticed is that people's views seem to stay pretty much the same throughout, right or wrong.

We can compare notes again later.